[TibetanPrincess]

@Timarie, I meant to add a while ago, while I was researching T and E, I read that the breast receptor sites can be either occupied by estrogen or testosterone.

I was always under the impression progesterone, testosterone had their own receptors in the breasts and ly dormant when the opposing hormones were dominant , but the more I am reading, the more I am finding out, that T can occupy all of these receptors just as Estrogen, and now I am assuming it may be the same for progesterone.

So with working out of the upper chest, it may be that MOST if not MANY of your breast receptors may never have a chance of being filled with Estrogen.

So I don't know if a strong antiandrogen would be the answer alone, or if you need to work out less in addition to it. Just something to think about if you haven't.

This is partly true, and this is why I've encouraged her to try anti-androgens. I DON'T think she should have to reduce her workouts any. And that would actually be harmful to her lower body routine. MAYBE she MIGHT want to think about stopping working on her pectorals, but certainly shouldn't need to worry about her lower body hurting anything.

If this DOESN'T work I do already know she'd rather abandon attempts at getting a larger breast size than abandon her workout routines or even ease up on them.

I said it's partly true because you're slightly misunderstanding I think how the receptors work. Only estrogens bind to estrogen receptors. Only progesterone and progestins bind to progesterone receptors. And only androgens bind to androgen receptors. However, when there is too much of one of these, it inhibits the binding for the other two. Not because it's stealing receptors, but because it's congesting the traffic.

Also, with BO, it actually does contain hormones, but it also contains nutritional support. The enzymes and growth factors nourish the glands, it strengthens them to function at their best. So its technically both hormonal supplementation and glandular strengthening. These hormones are still stronger than phyto estrogens. So with PM, it will most likely be competing with BO hormones/your own hormones, so best to not use too much PM (if you are going this route).

She's already quit PM before starting BO. Though I'm not so sure they compete at all anyways. Maybe they do. But I really don't think so. There are more than one kind of receptor for each of the three main hormone groups... There's at least two identified major ones for estrogens, and in animal testing, they've found that plant-based estrogens tend to prefer the beta sites and animal estrogens tend to prefer the alpha sites. So they'd actually cooperate up to a certain point. But past the "traffic congestion" point they'd just clog up the system, obviously.

Her stopping PM was a GOOD idea actually on two fronts: she was already upper-range on estrogen, so she'd likely go into traffic congestion if she tried taking more than one source. And also because she was already BALANCED, taking PM could have UNBALANCED her, which I'm pretty sure was already happening before

Thanks@abi, for clearing that up about the receptors. Also, I was talking only of the upper chest work outs, sorry if that was not clear @Timarie Hopefully it all works out for her.

I nearly killed my T with drinking spearmint and lemongrass for a couple of months! The tea was that good.

[timarie]

So with working out of the upper chest, it may be that MOST if not MANY of your breast receptors may never have a chance of being filled with Estrogen.

So I don't know if a strong antiandrogen would be the answer alone, or if you need to work out less in addition to it. Just something to think about if you haven't.

Thank you for your concern! It may appear like I exercise a lot, but I really don't. That is the beauty of weight lifting. I usually spend 4 hours working out TOTAL in a WEEK, and will occasionally spend 5 hours and 15 minutes per week. Only 2 of these hours per week do I really workout hard (and this is for my lower body), as the rest of the hours are a pretty light workout. I increase my testosterone levels at the time, yes, but it cannot be so much that breast growth cannot be just as obtainable as anyone else on this forum... especially if it is only for that few count of hours during the week. Suggesting such would be going to unhealthy extremes with NBE if one cannot do something like exercise in minor amounts.

EDIT: Just noticed your post above. I spend less than a half hour working out my pectorals a week, because the rest of the 45 minutes that I dedicate to that routine is isolating my triceps. I lift really lift weight for a short period of time! As I said, less than a half hour per week on my actual chest muscles, so I'm assuming that won't do much.

Also, with BO, it actually does contain hormones, but it also contains nutritional support. The enzymes and growth factors nourish the glands, it strengthens them to function at their best. So its technically both hormonal supplementation and glandular strengthening. These hormones are still stronger than phyto estrogens. So with PM, it will most likely be competing with BO hormones/your own hormones, so best to not use too much PM (if you are going this route).

Now I admit I am confused by this, because all the BO companies advertise their products as being non-hormonal, and I figure they are saying that because it does not contain anything with actual hormonal properties (no hormonal supplementation). I understood BO as "like heals like" as it is just ground-up ovaries, it is theoretically supposed to "re-awaken" my ovaries for my ovaries to produce their own hormones... NOT that I am ingesting foreign hormones. That is what I understood, anyway. If BO contains hormones, then why do they advertise it as non-hormonal? Strange.

Is this something you just found out? I ask because when we spoke before, you said it was fine if I found out later that I needed it (although I personally never want to take PM orally ever again, I don't mind taking it topically), and you encouraged me to take PM topically now, which I am doing. I would think that the little bit of PM that I get topically in the morning and at night should not be too much PM. Are you saying this is no longer a good idea? I just want to be clear on what you are saying...

[TibetanPrincess]

So with working out of the upper chest, it may be that MOST if not MANY of your breast receptors may never have a chance of being filled with Estrogen.

So I don't know if a strong antiandrogen would be the answer alone, or if you need to work out less in addition to it. Just something to think about if you haven't.

Thank you for your concern! It may appear like I exercise a lot, but I really don't. That is the beauty of weight lifting. I usually spend 4 hours working out TOTAL in a WEEK, and will occasionally spend 5 hours and 15 minutes per week. Only 2 of these hours per week do I really workout hard (and this is for my lower body), as the rest of the hours are a pretty light workout. I increase my testosterone levels at the time, yes, but it cannot be so much that breast growth cannot be just as obtainable as anyone else on this forum... especially if it is only for that few count of hours during the week.

Also, with BO, it actually does contain hormones, but it also contains nutritional support. The enzymes and growth factors nourish the glands, it strengthens them to function at their best. So its technically both hormonal supplementation and glandular strengthening. These hormones are still stronger than phyto estrogens. So with PM, it will most likely be competing with BO hormones/your own hormones, so best to not use too much PM (if you are going this route).

Now I admit I am confused by this, because all the BO companies advertise their products as being non-hormonal, and I figure they are saying that because it does not contain anything with actual hormonal properties (no hormonal supplementation). I understood BO as "like heals like" as it is just ground-up ovaries, it is theoretically supposed to "re-awaken" my ovaries for my ovaries to produce their own hormones... NOT that I am ingesting foreign hormones. That is what I understood, anyway. If BO contains hormones, then why do they advertise it as non-hormonal? Strange.

Is this something you just found out? I ask because when we spoke before, you said it was fine (although I personally never want to take PM orally ever again, I don't mind taking it topically) and you encouraged me to take PM topically. I would think that the little bit of PM that I get topically in the morning and at night should not be too much PM. Are you saying this is no longer a good idea? I just want to be clear on what you are saying...

You're fine. PM topical is good small amounts (notice how even the companies say (only use very little amount). I was referring to internal. My apologies, I wasn't for sure you were getting off internal PM.

Yep, its true, they are from the animal and if they are freezedried to a low temp, much of it will be intact like the enzymes and growth factors they want to preserve (or else, it wouldn't be nearly as effective). They would have to extract the components like they do with thyroxin in bovine thyroid glands. But I believe these glands they have in their formula are not highly processed. I think that is why they say its "homeopathic" (at least for BB anyway). I don't know about UB.

In any case, think of BO as a glandular adaptogen in a sense. While it gives your body hormones, it heals and nourshes the gland at the same time. So when you get off of it, your body is working better than ever then when before you were on it.

Now if it were strictly hormones extracted form the animal ovaries without the enzymes and other growth factors, then it would be like taking animal-derived cortisol. I would imagine it would feedback just like with anything else, telling your body its getting enough hormones and not to produce any (like BC) Which is not good and over time, sterilizing your functions if on it for a long enough by the time you got off of it.

This is the reason why I don't take cortisol (plant, animal or synthetic, I need the whole gland to work, as in nourishing it with a whole food source. SO tapering off and taking the whole gland is best.

These companies want to tout hormone free because its whole food (glandular) approach that does not require major processing or extraction or contain phytoestrogens and progestins. But it really does contain them whether it be small, large amounts, weak, or dead (homeopathic methods). none the less this stuff is pretty powerful.

Btw, read this customer comment in regards to using BB:
"So I ordered a supply of bountiful breast off of their website. To put it simply I did see minimal growth after 2 months. My breasts were fuller feeling but there were no mind blowing results. I didn't really follow the protein shake regimen regularly (only here and there). I would have continued taking it (because they recommend at least 3 months of it to see visible results) but I could not continue. My ovaries and uterus started killing me, so much so I went to the hospital. It must've been because of the excess of hormones in my body (I was also using a birth control pill at the time). It's too bad too because the pills are so expensive so I ended up blowing a ton of money. I don't think I'm going to buy any enhancement products of any kind anymore... "

http://www.amazon.com/BountifulBreast-mo...B0006GYCI4

[timarie]

Well, thanks for the break-down, T! and.....

Btw, read this customer comment in regards to using BB:
"So I ordered a supply of bountiful breast off of their website. To put it simply I did see minimal growth after 2 months. My breasts were fuller feeling but there were no mind blowing results. I didn't really follow the protein shake regimen regularly (only here and there). I would have continued taking it (because they recommend at least 3 months of it to see visible results) but I could not continue. My ovaries and uterus started killing me, so much so I went to the hospital. It must've been because of the excess of hormones in my body (I was also using a birth control pill at the time). It's too bad too because the pills are so expensive so I ended up blowing a ton of money. I don't think I'm going to buy any enhancement products of any kind anymore... "
http://www.amazon.com/BountifulBreast-mo...B0006GYCI4

....what??? ^^ From the BO and the BC together? Do they advise against that? For the sake of keeping things simple, I am glad that I am not on BC!

[timarie]

So for the past two weeks...

I've been taking my Ultra Breast BO, with applying my Ainterol PM Cream every morning and night, taking collagen every day (just to use up the rest of it!), and MSM with Vitamin C every day. I have only snoogled once. Maybe that is something that will gradually work its way back into my program later, when my grad school applications are all finished. Snoogling is the first thing that gets bumped out of my program when I begin to feel overwhelmed!

Obviously no signs of growth as of yet, but the reason I am posting today is because my Chinese Skullcap and Spearmint came in yesterday and I started taking it today! So now they are officially a part of my program. I am taking 400mg of each, three times a day. So that is 1200mg of Spearmint and 1200mg of Chinese Skullcap per day.

Now I will be looking into something to boost my prolactin a bit, since BO does not increase prolactin. Any suggestions are welcome here! I have started looking at goat's rue and fenugreek.

[Summerglow]

I want to say Fenugreek works for that b/c that's all I was taking and then got the infected milk duct.. I think it stimulated my milk ducts since I previously have breastfed. So, I think Fenugreek would work well for increasing prolactin.

[AbiDrew85]

I think FG is the best choice for you of all the herbs that raise prolactin, if you want more on my opinion on that, I can post it.

[timarie]

I want to say Fenugreek works for that b/c that's all I was taking and then got the infected milk duct.. I think it stimulated my milk ducts since I previously have breastfed. So, I think Fenugreek would work well for increasing prolactin.

Thanks for sharing! I know that fenugreek works for raising prolactin which is why I said I was considering it, but I need to consider the other functions of the herb in comparison to other herbs that raise prolactin to determine what is best for me! That is pretty incredible though that it had that much effect on you! I kinda hope after my research is done that my findings lead me to fenugreek, only because I have a lot left over from before AND I think it had something to do with my menstrual cramps completely ceasing for my last two menses!

[timarie]

I think FG is the best choice for you of all the herbs that raise prolactin, if you want more on my opinion on that, I can post it.

Sure Abi, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it in comparison to the other galactogogue herbs. I was kinda hoping for something that just raises prolactin, since I should be getting an increase in all my other hormones from my BO.

[sweet]

Goat's rue can also be considered.