[Coco2772]

Hope someone out there can help me with this. I don't know what to do. A couple months ago I started my program which consisted of fenugreek, fennel, wild yam, saw palmetto and substituted red clover with the wild yam at one point. My follicular phase is about 30 days long (45 day cycle is normal for me). Anyways, maybe halfway through my cycle, I was experiencing mood swings, irritability, and just really tired all the time. I decided to stop taking everything and I actually felt better after a few days. I don't want my docs advice because he's just a bit old fashioned and would not approve of nbe. According to the online hormone test I'm estrogen dominant, progesterone deficient and I may be cortisol deficient. I want to start a new program but maybe make some changes, I just don't know what. I did get swelling from my previous program, but now it's all gone.
Wahaika, Isabelle and anybody who can help me, please advise me on what I can do.

Stats:
Married
2 children
40yrs
32C ( a bit deflated)
132lbs
5'3"

[AbiDrew85]

I don't know if either of the two you asked for are around much right now, but I think I can make a reasonable substitute.

You answered your own question, so I don't think I really need to go there again, other than to say that yes, a program like that stands a very good chance of making some women estrogen dominant. Progesterone deficiency is essentially just another name for estrogen dominant. Though it carries with it a little more oomph on the lack of progesterone, meaning, you were probably low on it before anyways, but it became much much more pronounced when you raised your estrogen without your progesterone.

First, Wild Yam wasn't doing anything, it serves no real purpose because our bodies can't process the diosgenin into ANY hormones, it's a precursor, yes, but only insofar as a lab can turn it into basically ANY of the steroidal hormones, but our bodies just toss it out.

Saw Palmetto's only purpose is to block excess dihydrotestosterone. Most women really don't need any, or very little.

Fenugreek is phytoestrogenic, but not directly very strongly a phytoestrogen in itself... It was more or less giving a boost to fennel and red clover, which were your phytoestrogens.

IMO, other than the Wild Yam, your old program was mostly fine, though maybe add some maca, or progesterone cream, or both, to help balance your progesterone.

Maca isn't progestogenic, exactly, it's an adaptogen that somehow or other keeps your hormones more balanced.

Progesterone creams will directly deliver actual bio-identical progesterone to your bloodstream. It is very easy to OD.

If you do use maca, definitely include SP, as maca is known to be somewhat androgenic.

[Coco2772]

Thanks AbiDrew85, i will definitely try the maca. Your advice is very helpful. I'm so tired of dealing with PMS. As for the wild yam, could I open the capsules and steep the powder for massage or would that be pointless?

[AbiDrew85]

Well... pointless I guess depends on your point of view... It wouldn't be likely to make any difference to you one way or another, orally, or transdermally.

I'm not sure how well a steeping of it would work as a massage "oil"... I somehow don't think it'd be very oily.

You could keep it around if you have leftover to put into poultice's, it's supposed to have anti-inflammatory and other uses that make it a decent ingredient in a poultice for bandaging and keeping wounds clean.

I honestly can't think of any real good reason to actually buy any if you're out though.

EDIT: Another use seems to be to keep triglycerides down in the bloodstream. Could be interesting to use for that, though it's unrelated to BE. It's uncertain what the mechanism is, but high blood triglycerides is usually a symptom of too many starches in your diet... Whether it helps you to properly metabolize the starches so they don't get turned into triglycerides and start floating around in the bloodstream or aids the liver in cleaning out the triglycerides... who knows? It's better just not to eat the starch to begin with.

[Louloute]

Hi, this definitely happened to me too a few months ago when I was taking herbs. It came at the worst time, while I was on vacation. I was so lethargic and tired all the time. I didn't even want to get out of bed in the morning. The thought of socializing wasnt even an option. I was moody and had anxiety attacks. I stopped taking any phytoestrogens and found some vitex at a store. I started taking Vitex in my luteal for one month. And when I got home I began my BO routine. Have been feeling a lot better since then! I hope you feel better because I know exactly how you feel. Also, I had a hormone test done. Although I'm almost positive I am estrogen-dominant. I recommend doing this.

Edit: I also bought some PC cream online. Used it during luteal phase instead of vitex.

[Wahaika]

Coco,

It looks like I am probably a little bit late, but this thread has a few misunderstandings that I thought would be good to clear up.

Your program was fine. It is the time of year that is starting to mess you up, along with the need for a break, not a change in program. As a 40 year old 32C with children, your program was near perfect. The one thing that you do not show on your program is a B complex. You need a multivitamin and a B complex. Fenugreek will lower your blood sugar. This could easily cause the same symptoms. The answer here is to raise your carbs and exercise with a workout that tones but is not designed to burn fat. You want one that is designed to engage growth hormone. Also, you need to make sure you are getting enough protein. Chicken or beef a few times per week, and lots of dark leafy greens.

Another addition is a batter followed by massage and then heat for 30 minutes under a heated pad. Do you have any topicals in your program to go with those 100 rotations?

Fenugreek, saw palmetto, and wild yam are a combination. While they each have their individual characteristics, they work with each other synergistically. There is no need to alter these in your program. (BTW, wild yam has been shown in research to stimulate the ovaries to raise estrogen production!!!) The dosages you have listed on your program page are perfect! The issue here is with metabolism, which is partly governed by the above, and by the pineal gland. November and December are dead last in effective months of the year. Take a break. Do topicals. Just understand that your body changes at this time of year to keep warm. Don't fight it. Work with it. Be ready for when the days get longer. You will notice a big change in March through May. I normally recommend Cycle Day 1 before March 20th as a good starting date. The lower you go in longitude, the earlier you can start with expected success.

Red Clover is good as a topical but it is terrible as in internal. I don't normally recommend it in any way, but as a topical it could be acceptable.

Maca, progesterone cream, and Vitex are usually recipes for stopping progress in its tracks. Maca raises testosterone, Vitex inhibits prolactin and makes progesterone receptors more sensitive, progesterone cream raises progesterone levels. Progesterone opposes estrogen = bad for NBE unless you have a specific need for progesterone supplementation. If you are still ovulating then you are fine on progesterone. There is a correct way to use it but it is normally unnecessary. If you are going to use something to raise testosterone like MACA or possibly DHEA, then add something to help it transition to estrogen by raising aromatase. This means evening primrose oil, borage oil, and white peony root are needed as internals and externals.

Good luck!!

Wahaika

[AbiDrew85]

(BTW, wild yam has been shown in research to stimulate the ovaries to raise estrogen production!!!)

I was unfamiliar with this research. Care to provide a link, I'm always willing to learn?

Progesterone opposes estrogen = bad for NBE unless you have a specific need for progesterone supplementation. If you are still ovulating then you are fine on progesterone. There is a correct way to use it but it is normally unnecessary.

And see... We're going to have to disagree here. Estrogen dominance is just as bad for BE as progesterone toxicity. The key is to raise them BOTH in a balanced way. The BEST way to control how much you raise your progesterone by is to use PC. Follow schedule directions on the packaging, but start small and slowly increase the amount as and if necessary. IF you have estrogen dominance ONLY.

Estrogen dominance does not necessarily have to cause a stoppage of the female cycle to already be at dangerous levels, btw. It depends on the individual.

[NotSoBusty]

ahhhh Wahaika! are you still on your forum? I may be starting a program over there soon.

[Coco2772]

Thank you Wahaika for taking the time to answer my post. I have stopped the herbs for now and won't be starting til next march, like you suggested. However, I will resume the massages. I was using fenugreek powder steeped in olive oil and EPO. I think my moodiness started when I switched the wild yam with the red clover. Or maybe it was just bound to happen, I don't know. I was also taking MSM x 3000mg, vitaminC, a multi vitamin, EPO blend that includes fish oil and vitamin E. I had about an inch growth, now of course it's all gone. However, I'm really excited about starting in the spring again knowing that my program was ok. I am thinking of trying vitex for the time being for my cycle. My cycle is so unpredictable. I think this month it will be shorter. Anyways, thank you all for your help and suggestions! I love this forum!

[Wahaika]

Hi Coco,

For MSM, use Carlson's. It is the best one to use for NBE. Fish oil is another one that I usually discourage. A better way to get your omega-3 fatty acid is with flaxseed oil. But if you want to use fish oil, then really crank up the MSM.

I would discourage the use of Vitex while you are actively doing an NBE program. You would need to stop it 3 months before starting. The effects of Vitex stay around long after you quit taking it. It is very good for perimenopause, but not for NBE. One thing you can try is to force your LH down with Black Cohosh. Now, I NEVER recommend Black Cohosh to anyone except for the purpose of forcing the LH drop (therefore creating the spike) that causes ovulation. Whatever your normal ovulation day is, take it on that day only. If you don't know ovulation day, then take the end of your cycle and subtract two weeks. Take it for 3 days (day before, day of, day after) then stop.