[Sarbear]

Hi all!

I'm new here, but have been researching for a long time. I'm coming up with my program and came across this study showing that women with larger breasts have high HGH during follicular then high estrogen and progesterone with low testosterone during luteal phase. (For women on birth-control, it's a little different).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9098173

There's another study that shows that women who received estrogen and had high HGH levels grew about 3 inches in 6 months!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9610425

So it looks like HGH is really important! What do you all think about this program incorporating these studies? Keep in mind I'm very pear-shaped so I only want breasts to grow and am likely estrogen dominant.

Follicular:
-Fenugreek and/or Shatavari 1500mg/day
-l-arginine, glutamine, lysine 1 cap/day
-massage 30 min

Luteal:
-vitex 400mg/day
-licorice 40mg/day

Thanks!

[Happyme]

Hi Sarbear!
Welcome.
one of our members Vixy has had great success with her program and she was attune to her HGH as well.
Here is a link to her thread:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=24820
This should help.
Bobbi

[surferjoe2007]

I'm confused why everyone keeps thinking 1-2 capsules is the right amount for everything. It would be a lucky coincidence if it were. But actually you have to look up the amount for everything. Oh and find studies or another official source. Avoid getting this info from labels, un-sourced articles or people's guesses or it'll just say 1 or 2 capsules because that's what sounds right to everyone else who they want to please.

HGH studies use about 6,000 mg L-arginine and 1,000 mg of the others. But you're likely to get diarrhea from that amount unless you spread it out well. It's easier to get from your diet by eating meat and nuts. And if for some reason you did want 500 mg L-arginine, that's in about 1 oz. of meat. Since you need less of the other aminos they're easier to get from food.

For fenugreek or shatavari about 1,000-1,500 mg is the amount where it is too little to have any effect at all. By pure coincidence that is the right amount of vitex though. For herbs you can avoid taking a lot of pills by finding good strong extracts. Or you can also soak fenugreek seeds in water to soften and snack on them like a food instead of acting like they're a drug.

[Lotus]

Welcome Sarbear,

Interesting plan, two ways I'd also use HGH are in sleep (first 2 hours in sleep release HGH) and from HIIT (high intensity interval training).

Also, antioxidants are essential part in protecting breasts, especially in an NBE program.

Btw, I like seeing attached research, thanks.

Here's something that everyone should understand, toxicity. It's understood women metabolize quicker:

Clinical studies indicate that women metabolise drugs which are substrates of CYP3A4 more quickly than men (20–30% increase)4. Analysis has shown around two fold higher levels of CYP3A4 protein in female compared to male tissue samples3,4. http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/PUArtic...4503A4.htm

So, in other words we can't simply suggest someone else should take x amount of an herb/med without some research done by the individual. The swing in metabolism could be as much as 50% in individuals. As I said before, if the PM is legit, females should only take 100 to 250 mg......and only in the first half. What PM does in the brain (especially in females) is less understood. Meaning, how PM effects the HPA (hypothalamus pituitary axis) is tricky business, and especially at growth hormones/ lutenizing & follicle stimulating hormones, cause everyone metabolizes different.

[Sarbear]

Thanks Happyme! She had amazing growth! I was staying away from NB because I'm not sure if it's permanent and don't want to sag later, but maybe I'll have to give it another look...

Hey Surferjoe, I put 1 capsule because I couldn't find a combined version of amino acida so it was easier than writing out each dose for each different bottle, but if you're interested, I'm taking 2g/day of glutamine. Also, yeah the others (lysine and arginine) are a pretty mixed bag -- some places say they help even at low doses and others say they don't. I'll probably just stick with glutamine for the moment since that one does have a lot of evidence for 2g helping to boost HGH. Got a suggestion for better supplements to boost HGH?

"By pure coincidence that is the right amount of vitex though." -- I'm not sure why you say this. Are you saying you think I just picked random doses of herbs?

One other question, Surferjoe: on your program page, you recommend 900-1200mg fenugreek or shatavari (or 300-1200mg if it's 50% saponin), so which dosage are you recommending? Or does just depends on the potency? Mine is actually 50% for shatavari and the fenugreek doesn't say so maybe I'll mix them...you think 50/50 fenugreek/shatavari would be effective or is 100% of one better? Don¡'t want to smell like maple syrup

Thank you Lotus for the suggestions! I saw that too about HIIT training, but thought I wouldn't be consistent enough haha. BUT it boosts HGH by over 700% so maybe I really should try to do it!

Thanks for your feedback everyone!!! So the update is: Add HIIT, lots of sleep, and use only Glutamine

[AbiDrew85]

There's a lot more where those two came from as well.

Yes, HGH -IS- very important to growth in those with otherwise perfect hormone balance. The big problem with that is that HGH is very difficult to increase safely. Most things people use thinking it'll increase their HGH levels either completely just don't work, or they take an insufficient amount for it to actually work because too much of those things that work often cause problems in the brain due to HOW they work, which cascades into all kinds of negative symptoms. I am unaware of anything herbal that increases HGH in isolation from other HPA hormones, which is where the danger comes from.

The only safe way to improve HGH levels is to ensure you get good sleep, plenty of balanced protein and sufficient EAA's and EFA's. All this nonsense about specific protein's is just that. It's BALANCED protein you need, which mostly means that your EAA's, Essential Amino Acid's, are in a specific matrix of ratios NOT single or a few select amino's.

There are a total of 22 known AA's, and of those, 21 are important in humans, of those, 9 are REQUIRED in specific ratios for ALL humans, and a further 7 for MOST humans. The remainder we can produce ourselves provided the essentials are in correct ratios and the rest of our diet and lifestyle is good. It is by far the most important and most difficult aspect of a good diet to get right, and is therefore at the root of a LOT of peoples problems. Including lack of good sleep, which FURTHER exacerbates the other problems!

Is it any wonder this is so hard to get right in our modern lives full of too many conveniences, too much noise and distraction, and not enough care to our bodies? Our distant ancestors got this right mainly by paying attention to their bodies. We have distanced ourselves from that in so many ways.

[surferjoe2007]

"By pure coincidence that is the right amount of vitex though." -- I'm not sure why you say this. Are you saying you think I just picked random doses of herbs?

Not exactly random, but I meant 1 capsule happens to be the right amount of vitex. I'm glad you're trying at least 2,000 mg L-arginine (I assume you mean arginine not glutamine?). You can get powder and spread it out into 4 doses throughout the day if you want more. Though food is still simpler I think. The healthy meats are seafood and especially shellfish. Some healthy nuts include pumpkin seeds, almonds, sunflower seeds, tahini and hummus (which contains tahini). Get them sprouted, sprout them yourself, take Beano or at worst get them roasted since they are hard to digest raw. Plus with healthy food you get a wider variety of aminos and lots of other nice nutrients. Abi already touched on the importance of the other 18 helpful aminos, and then there are hundreds of other important nutrients on top of that. Healthy food is always best.

One other question, Surferjoe: on your program page, you recommend 900-1200mg fenugreek or shatavari (or 300-1200mg if it's 50% saponin), so which dosage are you recommending? Or does just depends on the potency? Mine is actually 50% for shatavari and the fenugreek doesn't say so maybe I'll mix them...you think 50/50 fenugreek/shatavari would be effective or is 100% of one better? Don¡'t want to smell like maple syrup

It does depend on the potency. Both those dosages are for 50% saponin. The overall range is actually 600-2,400 mg extract as I later found out. You can stick to shatavari only or shatavari plus only 300 mg fenugreek extract / 3,000 mg whole fenugreek if you want to avoid the maple smell. Mixing isn't any better or worse than picking one. Glad you got a good extract for the shatavari, that should be fine then. Note that since the fenugreek isn't an extract it is much weaker so it won't have much effect compared to the shatavari. So 600-2,400 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract is fine, plus if you want to add a little fenugreek on top of that it won't change much nor add any maple smell at this low amount.

[2ndTimeAround]

I am 100% for simple means....I've been able to successfully incorporate HIIT (which in turn, brings more sleep) into my routine for the past 9 months. I've been able to lose weight (much needed after the weight I've gained from herbs) without losing any breast mass. In fact, I've seen increases in the last several months. At first I was afraid I would lose some of my gain....you hear everyone say that "if you lose weight, you're going to lose some boob mass because"..... But I've been fortunate and can only assume that the HIIT workouts have increased my HGH levels sufficiently to maintain and increase what I have, along with the herbs I have continued with. Best of luck!

[AbiDrew85]

I am 100% for simple means....I've been able to successfully incorporate HIIT (which in turn, brings more sleep) into my routine for the past 9 months. I've been able to lose weight (much needed after the weight I've gained from herbs) without losing any breast mass. In fact, I've seen increases in the last several months. At first I was afraid I would lose some of my gain....you hear everyone say that "if you lose weight, you're going to lose some boob mass because"..... But I've been fortunate and can only assume that the HIIT workouts have increased my HGH levels sufficiently to maintain and increase what I have, along with the herbs I have continued with. Best of luck!

The combination of HIIT with resistance training tends to target fat loss in the areas in which you resistance train, so, if you do HIIT, then immediately resistance train, say, your stomach, you'll lose more inches around your waist, but not as much elsewhere. If you don't ever combine HIIT with resistance training in your upper chest, you should be able to maintain, or, due to HIIT's tendency to improve HGH production, even gain breast size. This is NOT saying that HIIT is strictly targeted fat burning, it's only MORE targeted than endurance training, please don't confuse them and then someone else inevitably complain that someone told you that HIIT + resistance training was targeted fat burning when, inevitably, someone loses more than they'd like to in an area other than what they were trying to target. It happens. In a way you've been lucky in that, because a very small percentage WOULD still lose breast size.

[Lotus]

Add MSM with HIIT and intermittent fasting and it turns that 700% to 1300 to 2000%

MSM enhances GH signaling via the Jak2/STAT5b pathway in osteoblast-like cells and osteoblast differentiation through the activation of STAT5b in MSCs.
Joung YH1, Lim EJ, Darvin P, Chung SC, Jang JW, Do Park K, Lee HK, Kim HS, Park T, Yang YM.
Author information
Abstract
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) is a naturally occurring sulfur compound with well-known anti-oxidant properties and anti-inflammatory activities. But, its effects on bone are unknown. Growth hormone (GH) is regulator of bone growth and bone metabolism. GH activates several signaling pathways such as the Janus kinase (Jak)/signal transducers and activators of transcription (STAT) pathway, thereby regulating expression of genes including insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1. GH exerts effects both directly and via IGF-1, which signals by activating the IGF-1 receptor (IGF-1R). In this study, we investigated the effects of MSM on the GH signaling via the Jak/STAT pathway in osteoblasts and the differentiation of primary bone marrow mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs). MSM was not toxic to osteoblastic cells and MSCs. MSM increased the expression of GH-related proteins including IGF-1R, p-IGF-1R, STAT5b, p-STAT5b, and Jak2 in osteoblastic cells and MSCs. MSM increased IGF-1R and GHR mRNA expression in osteoblastic cells. The expression of MSM-induced IGF-1R and GHR was inhibited by AG490, a Jak2 kinase inhibitor. MSM induced binding of STAT5 to the IGF-1R and increased IGF-1 and IGF-1R promoter activities. Analysis of cell extracts by immunoprecipitation and Western blot showed that MSM enhanced GH-induced activation of Jak2/STAT5b. We found that MSM and GH, separately or in combination, activated GH signaling via the Jak2/STAT5b pathway in UMR-106 cells. Using siRNA analysis, we found that STAT5b plays an essential role in GH signaling activation in C3H10T1/2 cells. Osteogenic marker genes (ALP, ON, OCN, BSP, OSX, and Runx2) were activated by MSM, and siRNA-mediated STAT5b knockdown inhibited MSM-induced expression of osteogenic markers. Furthermore, MSM increased ALP activity and the mineralization of MSCs. Taken together, these results indicated that MSM can promote osteogenic differentiation of MSCs through activation of STAT5b.



Growth hormone pulse-activated STAT5 signalling: a unique regulatory mechanism governing sexual dimorphism of liver gene expression.
Waxman DJ1.
Author information
Abstract
Growth hormone (GH) exerts sexually dimorphic effects on liver gene transcription that are regulated by the temporal pattern of pituitary GH release; this release is intermittent in male rats and nearly continuous in females. Comparisons of liver nuclear protein tyrosine phosphorylation in male and female rats have led to the discovery that the liver transcription factor STAT5b is tyrosine phosphorylated in male but not female rats in response to GH pulses. Intermittent plasma GH pulses trigger a rapid and repeated tyrosine phosphorylation and nuclear translocation of liver STAT5b in intact male rats, while the more continuous pattern of GH exposure down-regulates the STAT5b signalling pathway in female rat liver. The central importance of STAT5b for the physiological effects of GH pulses has been verified using a mouse gene knockout model. STAT5b gene disruption leads to a major loss of multiple sexually differentiated responses associated with the sexually dimorphic pattern of pituitary GH secretion. Male-characteristic body growth rates and male-specific liver gene expression are decreased to wild-type female levels in STAT5b-/- males, while female-predominant liver gene products are increased in males to near female levels. STAT5b is thus a liver-expressed, latent cytoplasmic transcription factor that undergoes repeated tyrosine phosphorylation and nuclear translocation in response to intermittent plasma GH stimulation, and is a key intracellular mediator of the stimulatory effects of GH pulses on male-specific liver gene transcription. Other studies indicate, however, that STAT5a and STAT5b are both required for constitutive expression in female, but not male liver, of certain GH-regulated CYP enzymes. GH activation of both STAT5 proteins, which in turn form distinct homodimeric and heterodimeric DNA-binding complexes, is thus an important determinant of the sex-dependent and gene-specific effects that GH has on the liver.

I think it makes sense to take MSM after a high intensity workout, (biotin too, for its abilty to break down carbs). But because MSM induces binding of STAT5 to the IGF-1R and increases IGF-1 and IGF-1R promotes these activities you'd have to give MSM considerable attention for after workout repair. I like the 12-14 hour intermittent fast, followed by High-intensity Interval Training (HIIT) , that's short bursts of intense work followed by less intense activity or rest.


Growth hormone signaling in human adipose and muscle tissue during "feast and famine"; Amplification of exercise stimulation following fasting compared to glucose administration.

Conclusions: This study demonstrates that fasting and exercise act in tandem to amplify STAT-5b target gene expression (SOCS and CISH) in adipose and muscle tissue in accordance with the "feast and famine hypothesis"; the adipose tissue signaling responses which hitherto have not been scrutinized may play a particular role in promoting FFA mobilization.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/early/...1157.short


Fasting and fitness boost human growth hormone

Intermittent fasting for periods ranging from 12-24 hours along with high intensity exercise has a positive effect on boosting human growth hormone (HGH). HGH is a very important protein-based hormone that is produced by the pituitary gland. HGH enhances the cellular repair processes that allow us to age with grace. HGH regulates metabolism to burn fat, build muscle, and slow down the negative effects of stress.

Researchers at the Intermountain Medical Center Heart Institute found that men who had fasted for 24 hours had a 2000% increase in circulating HGH. Women who were tested had a 1300% increase in HGH.

A 2009 study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine showed that lactic acid accumulation helps to trigger HGH. Lactic acid is only produced in response to intense anaerobic training. Aerobic training is not intense enough to produce the kind of lactate triggering of HGH.

Low-intensity, long duration aerobic training is catabolic in nature. This means that it produces lots of free radicals without promoting significant amounts of repair peptides, enzymes and hormones. The net effect is a wearing down of bodily resources.

High-intensity training also produces free radicals but it triggers an abundance of repair peptides, enzymes and hormones to be released. The net effect of this is healthy tissue repair and favorable effects on body composition and anti-aging qualities.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034704_interm...z3cAB6XEkK

Effects of growth hormone on adipose tissue
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11086655