[bettie32]

Pink Chiffon, you might be able to explain this to me!

This question sounds dumb and logically, my common sense is telling me "yes, higher estrogen means lower testosterone" but you never know when it comes to hormones.....in the previous post, you stated that your estrogen and testosterone were both equally high (which apparently isn't good?). 

Suppose I have slightly higher testosterone and androgens (it has always been on the high side by the way in my blood test results because of PCOS), wouldn't the level of testosterone be lowered by taking phytoestrogens? Or do I have to take something to specifically lower/block testosterone first? I've seen many ladies on the forum say that they take herbs that block testosterone or they take an aromatase to transform testosterone into estrogen. But wouldn't simply taking phytoestrogens be enough to counteract high testosterone???

[hannah]

Pink Chiffon, you might be able to explain this to me!

This question sounds dumb and logically, my common sense is telling me "yes, higher estrogen means lower testosterone" but you never know when it comes to hormones.....in the previous post, you stated that your estrogen and testosterone were both equally high (which apparently isn't good?). 

Suppose I have slightly higher testosterone and androgens (it has always been on the high side by the way in my blood test results because of PCOS), wouldn't the level of testosterone be lowered by taking phytoestrogens? Or do I have to take something to specifically lower/block testosterone first? I've seen many ladies on the forum say that they take herbs that block testosterone or they take an aromatase to transform testosterone into estrogen. But wouldn't simply taking phytoestrogens be enough to counteract high testosterone???

I just want to my opinion on this though putting my finger on te exact way hormones interact which each other is too difficult for me..  Lotus told me the body has a certain.mechanism which you can compare with a thermostate...it adjusts on what we put in...different scenario's can happen.your body canstop or lessen natural estrogen production bc it gets another source from phyto-estrogens. Or it can convert excess estrogen to even more testosteron these are just 2 examples but hormones have many "backdoors" and can convert in so.many ways. I think the easiest way would be to first try an anti-androgen or an aromatase herb..you can always add phyto's later on...or do it the exact other way around. But i can understand to do it good straight away the first time then i really recommend you to take an (very expensive) saliva hormone test.

Ps: I do know from experience that once you influence either testosterone or estrogen you influence them both..how i dont know...but they do something with each other...if theyre balance relies on each other..so you dont have to be that fanatic with anti andorgens, less is often more..

[hannah]

Oops!

[bettie32]

I just want to my opinion on this though putting my finger on te exact way hormones interact which each other is too difficult for me..  Lotus told me the body has a certain.mechanism which you can compare with a thermostate...it adjusts on what we put in...different scenario's can happen.your body canstop or lessen natural estrogen production bc it gets another source from phyto-estrogens. Or it can convert excess estrogen to even more testosteron these are just 2 examples but hormones have many "backdoors" and can convert in so.many ways. I think the easiest way would be to first try an anti-androgen or an aromatase herb..you can always add phyto's later on...or do it the exact other way around. But i can understand to do it good straight away the first time then i really recommend you to take an (very expensive) saliva hormone test.

Ps: I do know from experience that once you influence either testosterone or estrogen you influence them both..how i dont know...but they do something with each other...if theyre balance relies on each other..so you dont have to be that fanatic with anti andorgens, less is often more..

Thank you, Hannah for your thorough reply and advice!


I'm actually glad to know that I don't have to take an anti-androgen, an aromatase, a phytoestrogen all at the same time. Personally, mixing too many things together doesn't sound like a good idea (depends on your body of course and what you can tolerate). Will take a look at which herb/supplement has the less side effects and then decide. It's quite complicated lol. I didn't know that it's best to take a pro-aromatase with astaxanthin for example (until Lotus pointed it out!) so there are so many things that one needs to think about. Certain herbs also aren't compatible with others....

It's very interesting how testosterone and estrogen influence each other....

By the way, do you know why many women seem to take phytoestrogens to increase their estrogen and then they also take something to balance/lower the estrogen? I don't understand the point, is there reason for this? If one doesn't want to become estrogen dominant, isn't it better not to take any phytoestrogens at all?

[hannah]

I just want to my opinion on this though putting my finger on te exact way hormones interact which each other is too difficult for me..  Lotus told me the body has a certain.mechanism which you can compare with a thermostate...it adjusts on what we put in...different scenario's can happen.your body canstop or lessen natural estrogen production bc it gets another source from phyto-estrogens. Or it can convert excess estrogen to even more testosteron these are just 2 examples but hormones have many "backdoors" and can convert in so.many ways. I think the easiest way would be to first try an anti-androgen or an aromatase herb..you can always add phyto's later on...or do it the exact other way around. But i can understand to do it good straight away the first time then i really recommend you to take an (very expensive) saliva hormone test.

Ps: I do know from experience that once you influence either testosterone or estrogen you influence them both..how i dont know...but they do something with each other...if theyre balance relies on each other..so you dont have to be that fanatic with anti andorgens, less is often more..

Thank you, Hannah for your thorough reply and advice!


I'm actually glad to know that I don't have to take an anti-androgen, an aromatase, a phytoestrogen all at the same time. Personally, mixing too many things together doesn't sound like a good idea (depends on your body of course and what you can tolerate). Will take a look at which herb/supplement has the less side effects and then decide. It's quite complicated lol. I didn't know that it's best to take a pro-aromatase with astaxanthin for example (until Lotus pointed it out!) so there are so many things that one needs to think about. Certain herbs also aren't compatible with others....

It's very interesting how testosterone and estrogen influence each other....

By the way, do you know why many women seem to take phytoestrogens to increase their estrogen and then they also take something to balance/lower the estrogen? I don't understand the point, is there reason for this? If one doesn't want to become estrogen dominant, isn't it better not to take any phytoestrogens at all?

The thought behind taking DIM(FYI, you could add green vegetables for this too) for example to flush out extra estrogens is because you take phytoestrogens huh but we dont exactly know which form we take. You see it can be converted to estriol, estradiol and estrone if I'm not wrong(PLEASE research if this is exactly the truth,lol bc I read MANY thing in the mean while) However one of these forms is the most potent for breastgrowth and will hopefully attach to our receptors...so that one will be out of our blood(i assume it lowers itself by having a function) But then there's also one I thought estriol?? that is the bad variant...this one could possibly cause (breast)cancer and other negative effects  perhaps blood related problems(clotting,bleeding)we dont need. So we take DIM to ''metabolise''(?) it and get it out of or system bc this variant is not THAT dangerous but in higher doses while doing nothing in our body it keeps floating around, then build up in our systems which we dont know the long term side effects.
So cleanses are important and ofcourse dont overdose in the first place.
I think taking phyto's and dim at the same time could be counterproductive..I think its better to do as detofication once a month or whatever feels good to your findings.

[bettie32]

The thought behind taking DIM(FYI, you could add green vegetables for this too) for example to flush out extra estrogens is because you take phytoestrogens huh but we dont exactly know which form we take. You see it can be converted to estriol, estradiol and estrone if I'm not wrong(PLEASE research if this is exactly the truth,lol bc I read MANY thing in the mean while) However one of these forms is the most potent for breastgrowth and will hopefully attach to our receptors...so that one will be out of our blood(i assume it lowers itself by having a function) But then there's also one I thought estriol?? that is the bad variant...this one could possibly cause (breast)cancer and other negative effects  perhaps blood related problems(clotting,bleeding)we dont need. So we take DIM to ''metabolise''(?) it and get it out of or system bc this variant is not THAT dangerous but in higher doses while doing nothing in our body it keeps floating around, then build up in our systems which we dont know the long term side effects.
So cleanses are important and ofcourse dont overdose in the first place.
I think taking phyto's and dim at the same time could be counterproductive..I think its better to do as detofication once a month or whatever feels good to your findings.

Thank you again, Hannah
Goodness, so many things to take into consideration!! 
I'm not going to take DIM for the time being because I've read that some women actually deflated while taking it (perhaps they needed more estrogen??) though I have also read about other women who have grown from DIM (maybe they are estrogen dominant). How confusing!! I think it would be good once in a while though to detoxify as you said. Am going to take something like dandelion tea to cleanse the liver to flush out excess hormones. I think that will also be a good way to detox....
May I ask you what you program consists of?

[Miss Mad Scientist]

Hi there

Couldn't help but to reply on this one: if you have PCOS, you can take spironolactone from your doctor, spiro is a testosterone blocker, lots of transgender females also take that. Beats any herbal treatment and in 26% of women on spiro with PCOS, they have noticed breast enhancement. Go for that I would say!
Also makes muscles smaller (more feminine)  and gets rid of hitsutism (unwanted hairs), and also hormonal acne.
Basically make you more female hehe!

Xxx

[hannah]

The thought behind taking DIM(FYI, you could add green vegetables for this too) for example to flush out extra estrogens is because you take phytoestrogens huh but we dont exactly know which form we take. You see it can be converted to estriol, estradiol and estrone if I'm not wrong(PLEASE research if this is exactly the truth,lol bc I read MANY thing in the mean while) However one of these forms is the most potent for breastgrowth and will hopefully attach to our receptors...so that one will be out of our blood(i assume it lowers itself by having a function) But then there's also one I thought estriol?? that is the bad variant...this one could possibly cause (breast)cancer and other negative effects  perhaps blood related problems(clotting,bleeding)we dont need. So we take DIM to ''metabolise''(?) it and get it out of or system bc this variant is not THAT dangerous but in higher doses while doing nothing in our body it keeps floating around, then build up in our systems which we dont know the long term side effects.
So cleanses are important and ofcourse dont overdose in the first place.
I think taking phyto's and dim at the same time could be counterproductive..I think its better to do as detofication once a month or whatever feels good to your findings.

Thank you again, Hannah
Goodness, so many things to take into consideration!! 
I'm not going to take DIM for the time being because I've read that some women actually deflated while taking it (perhaps they needed more estrogen??) though I have also read about other women who have grown from DIM (maybe they are estrogen dominant). How confusing!! I think it would be good once in a while though to detoxify as you said. Am going to take something like dandelion tea to cleanse the liver to flush out excess hormones. I think that will also be a good way to detox....
May I ask you what you program consists of?

At this moment I am doing it with diet and massage. My diet is mostly focussed on fiber,the right and enough carbs(im underweight it was worse..im almostly at a healhty weight).and vitamin c and d, calcium,fruits veggies,nuts and other healthy fats like avocado's avoiding candy's and soda...yeh nbe is a lifestyle,lol. But for me its also about a healthy diet and it helped me with my skin i just look and feel healthier especially mentally more strong and happier. I like msm and glucosamine too...and in my future plan id look into collagen as well..
I think teas are a simple way too increase estrogen as well..you might look into only black teas potential its simple but depending on your current lifestyle together with other dietary change it could vring you a little further along the way..

[hannah]

I wanted to add something..you said you read about women getting deflated from.dim...i thin their dosage was to high..or their estrogen levels were indeed too low! thats why i said taking dim along with phytoesyrogens when you just started seems unproductive for me...better build up a certain level of phyto's and then cleanse...but no i have no science for thislol:p... at a certain point in nbe i became (i think many with me) my own guinea pig..especially bc constant monitoring of my hormones just isnt finacially possible..testing is very expensive here and is only helpful when you are 100% clear of bcp and herbs and hadnt had pregnancy's or otjer irregularities...then you have to test at different moments....its not that reliable otherwise...
Anyhow just hope you are able to find yourself a program to start out with!!

Oh and its not that only dim can cleanse you...yes it has certain specific functions when it comes to the estrogens. But eating healthy, veggies and fruits...drink some lemon water reguarly(this cleanses and lowers dht too) i think have a much more balanced program. Just trowing in all sorts of supplements just want work...you will not end up with big bossom one day to another you know...so for taking dim in your program something has to be up with you....its not something a healthy person would need daily without any reason.. just include brocilli a or other green veggies in your program..its a steady way to cleanse instead of rigorous high dosages.. your liver naturally.cleanses you out too...it will be wise to support your liver by cutting up dosages drinking water, lemon juice, the right teas(green tea can cleanse too), citrus fruits and breaks...then id say once a while take a good cleanse..but keeping it clean daily with diet is much.more advisable.
And i do.think breaking through the regularity of your program here and there by skipping dosages or taking a bit more just one day, is preventing habituation dont overdo this as it can bounce the other way resulting in fluctuations..but youll get the feeling of it when experience comes.

This became a long post!!!

[bettie32]

Hi there

Couldn't help but to reply on this one: if you have PCOS, you can take spironolactone from your doctor, spiro is a testosterone blocker, lots of transgender females also take that. Beats any herbal treatment and in 26% of women on spiro with PCOS, they have noticed breast enhancement. Go for that I would say!
Also makes muscles smaller (more feminine)  and gets rid of hitsutism (unwanted hairs), and also hormonal acne.
Basically make you more female hehe!

Xxx

Hi MissEllen!

Thank you for your reply and recommendation :-) I actually first read about spironolactone on this forum and you're right, it does sound like a dream!! Thing is I'm worried about side effects, and would prefer something a bit more "natural". I went off one of the lightest BCPs many years ago because I'd prefer not taking anything synthetic. Do you think there's anything more "natural"?? I've tried spearmint tea, licorice tea, fennel....all of them give me side effects unfortunately!
XX