[Lotus]

The combination of HIIT with resistance training tends to target fat loss in the areas in which you resistance train, so, if you do HIIT, then immediately resistance train, say, your stomach, you'll lose more inches around your waist, but not as much elsewhere.

This is a good point about targeted areas (thanks). I believe HIIT can be performed on the breasts, meaning if you can do chest isometrics on each quadrant of the breast, you can exhaust/expend the tissue. For additional resistance I hold (press) two fingers on the area I want to focus on, e.g. inner & upper poles, lower poles are extremely difficult. This has helped me shape breast tissue, give it a try and exhaust that gland lol.

[Sarbear]

Awesome info everyone! I´ll definitely try to do some HIIT and let you know how it goes...

Surferjoe, thanks for the clarification on the doses for shatavari and fenugreek!

Also, I just got my hormone saliva test results back Do you think I should change anything in my program based on this info?

Estradiol: 1.4 (Normal =1.3-3.3pg/mL)
*Progesterone: 72 (Normal = 75-270)
*Ratio Progesterone/Estradiol: 51 (Normal = 100-500)

So my progesterone is below normal, which makes me estrogen dominant, though my estrogen is barely in the normal range.

Is vitex going to be strong enough? I tried only 20mg PC during luteal, but got nausea, bloating, and dizziness. It seems like a lot of people say vitex doesn´t work for NBE, but that PC is successful for women with estrogen dominance. I seem like I would have been a perfect candidate for PC so why did I react so badly? I'm afraid the vitex won't produce much growth...any advice??

Is the fenugreek/shatavari going to make the imbalance worse?

Thanks! You are all so helpful here!

[Lotus]

I'd check prolactin, the estradiol is low end along with progesterone being low end, which would lead us to believe prolactin is inversely keeping both low. Do you have results on androgens?.

[AbiDrew85]

Is the fenugreek/shatavari going to make the imbalance worse?

Thanks! You are all so helpful here!

I'd check prolactin, the estradiol is low end along with progesterone being low end, which would lead us to believe prolactin is inversely keeping both low. Do you have results on androgens?.

Agreed. And yes, fenugreek would make this worse. Shatavari might not. From my own research fenugreek and shatavari actually don't do the exact same thing. They end up with pretty much the same results for SOME, but fenugreek achieves them by stimulating prolactin, shatavari by directly stimulating the ductal tissue on its own. In my case, the prolactin stimulation from fenugreek just gave me swelling and nothing else. Haven't tried shatavari yet.

[Sarbear]

Thanks Lotus and AbiDrew!

I didn´t test prolactin or androgens so I don´t know if those are normal. Wouldn't vitex lower both prolactin and testosterone anyway though?

Maybe I'll stop the shatavari for a couple months until my progesterone can catch up so I don't end up more estorgen dominant. Will just using vitex and licorice during luteal be enough to grow? I´m still not clear why PC cream works more often than vitex if the goal is just to to balance everything...

[surferjoe2007]

Thanks Lotus and AbiDrew!

I didn´t test prolactin or androgens so I don´t know if those are normal. Wouldn't vitex lower both prolactin and testosterone anyway though?

Maybe I'll stop the shatavari for a couple months until my progesterone can catch up so I don't end up more estorgen dominant. Will just using vitex and licorice during luteal be enough to grow? I´m still not clear why PC cream works more often than vitex if the goal is just to to balance everything...

Vitex pushes your body to produce a little more progesterone. That's why you can take it all month; your body will only make the progesterone at the normal time. PC *IS* progesterone. That's why most people only use it at the right time of the month, though some try different timings. There is a limit to how much progesterone your body will make while influenced by vitex. Whereas with PC however much you use is how much you get. So PC is the nuclear approach that you must control, vitex is the gentle approach where your body will reign it in and keep it under control. Vitex will work eventually and you can be careless about it, but it may take a lot longer. PC will work faster, but you might overdo it or mess with your cycle a little due to the timing.

I always thought both fenugreek and shatavari helped balance hormones. Though I could see how they might cause trouble in a major imbalance since they might have trouble raising a hormone that's heavily inhibited while the other one could still get raised.

[Sarbear]

Hey Surferjoe! I might try adding just a little PC during my luteal this time while I wait for the vitex to start working since it takes a couple months. Have people grown using just vitex long-term? I haven't been able to find any studies showing how much vitex increases levels of progesterone, have you? It would be interesting to see the percentages.

One thing I'm still not clear about is if the goal of NBE is to balance hormones or to raise them higher than normal. If you simply get adequate levels and ratios of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, etc., will your boobs grow? Or do you need to have hormones elevated above normal (or the high end of normal) to prompt growth?

I'm working on solving this mystery of why both my progesterone and estrogen are low so I'll let you all know when I figure it out!

[surferjoe2007]

Hey Surferjoe! I might try adding just a little PC during my luteal this time while I wait for the vitex to start working since it takes a couple months. Have people grown using just vitex long-term? I haven't been able to find any studies showing how much vitex increases levels of progesterone, have you? It would be interesting to see the percentages.

One thing I'm still not clear about is if the goal of NBE is to balance hormones or to raise them higher than normal. If you simply get adequate levels and ratios of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, etc., will your boobs grow? Or do you need to have hormones elevated above normal (or the high end of normal) to prompt growth?

I'm working on solving this mystery of why both my progesterone and estrogen are low so I'll let you all know when I figure it out!

I found a couple studies that show vitex raises progesterone but not by how much. I've heard stories of it taking many months to rebalance with vitex.

The basic goal of NBE is to raise hormones. Hormones lead to boobs. But it isn't that simple. An imbalance where only 1 hormone is high will have less effect, or in extreme cases the opposite effect with shrinkage. Studies with combined hormones show an upward curve, while studies with estrogen alone have a bell curve, where past a certain amount it actually has a reduced effect. Sensitivity to hormones is also an issue; both natural sensitivity and increasing it with herbs such as shatavari or fenugreek. Nutrition is also a big part, because it is the materials and tools without which nothing can happen; hormones are only signals.

High prolactin often causes other hormones to be low, so it's something to check. Low nutrition is another possibility, especially not enough whole grains. High prolactin can be corrected with dopamine herbs such as mucuna pruriens or ginseng. Low nutrition must be corrected with proper nutrition, and no amount of herbal signals will let you make something out of nothing.

[Sarbear]

Thanks as always surferjoe! That makes more sense, that you want to raise hormones, but still keep them balanced relative to each other.

I found that my thyroid might be causing my low progesterone and estrogen. I tested and have an abnormally high TSH so I'm going to get that sorted and see if my hormones straighten themselves out once my thyroid is normal I think I saw that low thyroid can cause high prolactin so that might explain everything!

[Zoie]

Hi all,
I read a thread somewhere that gave an accurate way for measuring breast volume/ size (not bra size). But I can't find it. Does anyone have the methodology, again for calculating a semi-accurate volume for breast change.

I am using Brava, but also realize, since I'm now just beginning menopausal years, I need the herbs for building my collagen and protein replacement during this static distraction phase using Brava. Need a way to calculate my volume post 12 hr. of brava use to see if the supplements I am taking (e.g., neocell collagen) and others that some of you are describing has an effect.

Also if some one is taking bioidentical hormones, how do they translate with the herbs I'm reading about here? I am already on a bio-identical progesterone and estrogen. I'd LOVE to find a supplement that provided some oxytocin (can you really eat pig placenta?)
Thanks ever so much,

Zoie